Believers in choice, Do you consider yourselves pro-choice or pro abortion?

You are so right. Illegal abortions were killing women in the 50's and 60's. The thing that bothers me more, I think, is the dumpster babies that would happen if abortion were suddenly illegal. Yet, rich teens would still be flying off to Europe to have it done safely.

Too many women cannot carry babies to term, and they shouldn't be forced to put their lives on the line if the rubber breaks.

That's true too, that rich teens would still be going elsewhere to have them done.

I read a book when I was a teenager about the effects of those amateur abortions, and I wish I could think of what it was called. Scary stuff. Way too many women have died that way. And it's not that those women were bad people, but generally because they were terrified of being ostracized or abandoned by their families for becoming pregnant under the wrong circumstances.

One of the women who lived in the house that I grew up in tried lysol injections and it nearly killed her. Her husband tried to kill her and was kicked out of the house. When she found out she was pregnant, she couldn't carry his child. This was before I was born.

Yeah, I do get rather annoyed at the whole, "you're killing a baby" thing. I miscarried my second pregancy at about 5 weeks. That which ended up in my toilet was NOT a baby. Sorry for the graphic description. No, I probably couldn't have an abortion. But then, I will never be the 14 year old who cant tell her father she's pregnant for fear that he will beat the crap out of her. And I'll never be the mother of 3 who's husband dies without insurance when she is pregnant with the fourth.

Until we can put ourselves in the shoes of another person, we can't judge. I don't like abortion, but it NEEDS to remain legal for women who really have no other way out.

*nods* Those are some really good examples, cyntrow.

totally true lecanis - there are many ways that a woman/girl can be in danger both physically and mentally by continuing with a pregnancy! xxx

Those are some very good examples and cyntrow I thought that was a very good point you made about the miscarriage. That what was expelled didn't look like a baby. Until we are in anothers shoes we have no idea what we might do. no one can ever know exactly what they are going through because each person is different.

I feel for women who have to choose abortion. I know most don't want to, but they see no other way. I will never condone sacrificing the life and health of a women over the potential life of a cluster of cells.

cyntrow, I'm sorry for your loss. If that was not a baby then what was it?

A piece of protoplasm that once had the potential to be a human being. A piece of tissue that you worship more than the freedom of your fellow born, female, unquestionably human being. This was not a person who could be fished out of the bowl and resuscitated. This is science, yes, but not rocket science. Open your mind a little bit!


I recall your words to one of the prochoice people who chimed in on your abortion-bashing that was deleted on Saturday night, Rose, and I'd like to point out that the same thing you said to them, then, applies to you, here, in this discussion. 'Nuff said?

of course it wasn't a baby and if you were truly sorry for cyntrows loss my friend I think you might be a little more considerate of cyntrows feelings! I have had 5 miscarriages over the space of 9 years - I also had to undergo a termination of one pregnancy! Neither option is easy and both ways of losing a child hurt equally badly! I do not intend to lay out all the circumstances of what happened here and I refuse to justify myself to anyone (apart from God) but I can tell you I have seen the same thing as Cyntrow and it is most definitely NOT a baby - it is a collection of cells that are getting ready to form into a baby but that takes time, nutrition and the right environment! I admire any woman who chooses to put her foetus's life before her own but when you have other children to consider that decision then takes on another element entirely. I was left without a mother at 2 years old and I would never consider leaving my children in that situation! I think that there will never be a time when everyone agrees on this issue and perhaps you should agree to disagree - or would it be easier to judge women whose shoes you have never walked in?

gardengrrl, I was not talking to you.

mummymo, I'm sorry but I disagree. A woman of compassion notices a miscarriage as a loss and offers comfort to the one that has loss their baby.

that is very true swtrose, but in my opinion a woman of real compassion would find out a persons circumstances before condemning them!

mummymo I am sorry you lost a child so early in the pregnancy. It is sad truly.
I know that many people don't think of it as a child but I would like to say this (before I do I am not condemning you or anyone else in any way shape or form) - when you found out you were pregnant did you tell people you were carrying a blob of tissue and cells or did you say "we're having a baby"?
I saw my son on ultrasound only 6 weeks into the pregnancy. He didn't look even close to being human but his little heart was beating strong. He was a baby whether he looked human or not.

**Again I am not judging anyone just adding my 2 cents. Oh and for the record my mom aborted her pregnancy before me because the doctor goofed and thought she was miscarrying when she wasn't. I have also had a miscarriage and I have people very close to me that have had miscarriages even a few who have had abortions.

OOPS so sorry I meant I was sorry to cyntrow. Forgive the error.

Don't worry about getting the wrong person maildumpster, I have been through miscarriage 5 times so I know what cyntrow means! To answer you question I told people I was expecting a baby - not that I was carrying one! Do not worry about me taking offence maildumpster, we are all entitled to our own opinion and to express it - I only get upset when someone is rude or abusive to me, not if they have a different opinion to me! I also know that my sister in law was advised to terminate her oldest son, as their were severe medical problems, he did suffer a horrific time when he was a baby and also had to have many operations throughout his childhood and teenage years but is now in his 20's tall, handsome and fit and has just qualified as a teacher! I know there are different sides to this subject but I still remain pro choice - that baby cannot survive outside of the womb! I do also think that 24 weeks (the upper limit in the uk) is too late and that should be taken down to 18- 20 weeks! xx

Thanks for understanding.
As I said I have people that I am very close to that have had abortions and I have no judgement toward them. I know the heartbreak that could go into such a decision. I had even considered it during my third pregnancy (the second was a miscarriage) but couldn't do it.

I can understand the "it isn't a baby if it can't live outside the womb" arguement. I don't even have an arguement for that.
I will say that once that age of viability arrives that should be it - no abortions no way. If you have gone that long and you just don't want to have a baby; then for pete's sake give it up for adoption. (not directed at anyone just using the generic 'you')

I totally understand your opinion on the cut off at the stage of viability - the uk was rocked last year when a baby survived at 24 weeks last year - the current stage of cut off - that is why I think it should be lowered! xxx

I remember that baby!
My son was born at 29 weeks. If it were not for drugs to suppress labor he would have come at 25 weeks. I was in labor at 25 weeks and they were able to delay the birth for 4 weeks.

That must have been a frightening time for you - I sure hope everything is ok with him now! I had a premature niece and nephew! The nephew was 8 weeks early and weighed 10lbs and they KNOW he was definitely that early cos there are only 9 months between him and his elder brother and my sister says that there was no way anything happened for at least 8 weeks after his brother was born, my niece was born at 31 weeks and weighed less than a bag of sugar (2lbs) She is now almost 27, gorgeous works with disadvantaged families and got married 6 weeks ago! xx

Very scary time. They were giving me some medication to help control my contractions and then they had to check his heart for damage caused by the medication!
3 years ago right now I was in active labor - tomorrow is his birthday. He is doing well. He is delayed in all areas but is very healthy dispite his heart defect.

I am so pleased that everything worked out well for you both! Will he need treatment for his heart defect at some stage or will he be okay without it? Tell me to mind my own business if I get too nosy ok? When you say delayed do you mean as in temporarily or more significantly? I think all children though are amazing and have special qualities that make them unique, and what is a devastating problem to one is a exciting challenge to another! Again I am sorry if I am getting too personal here, forgive me! I hope he has a wonderful 3rd birthday tomorrow! Give him a hug from me, and one to you too for what you went through 3 years ago! xxx

Thank you for the hugs. We are only having some cake tomorrow as his party is on Saturday.
At the moment they are only monitoring his heart. There is a bit of discussion still as to whether he has one problem or two. If it is the one; he may never need any intervention. If it is the other; he may need open heart surgery at some point in his life.

He was getting speech therapy every other week and both physical and occupational therapies once a week till last week. Now I am waiting on the school system to finish their evaluations of him to see if they are going to continue his therapies.
He is learning to talk. He only learned to walk independantly in mid February. He only learned how to stand unaided in this past month. He still eats mostly foods he can feed himself with his hands as he isn't doing to well using a fork and spoon.
He is catching up slowly. Will he always have problems? Who knows. For now I deal with what we have which is a very smart, very happy, adorable little boy with some obstacles to over come.

He sounds absolutely adorable and I do pray he won't need open heart surgery!My 5 year old had had some of these obstacles in life too (apart from heart problems) and has been involved in speech, physio and occupational therapies - only being discharged (with the door open for return if any more help is needed) at the beginning of this year! I was told by all 3 of them that the only reason her problems have been overcome so easily is because she 'thinks outside the box' and is very smart! Anyone who meets her has never realised just how hard her problems were for her to deal with they just saw a 'normal' child who didn't speak so good! I am sure your son will progress well, and I bet you have a lot of fun together! xxx

I didn't tell anyone I was pregnant until I would have had my first prenatal visit which would have been at 6 weeks. Prior to that, I had had a missed period and that is all. When it happened, I knew that it had happened, but no, it was not a baby. It was in no way close to being a child and for whatever reason, it needed to expel. Now, when I had my stillbirth, at 6 months gestation, that was a completely different story. That was a baby. It was jsut a baby that wasn't alive. And for the record, rather than have me carry a dead baby for 3 months, my doctor did a procedure that some like to call, "partial birth abortion."

Oh and Maildumpster, I'm glad your child is...doing well. The best thing is the love that you have to help show him through. Best of luck to you.

It's amazing what these children can do!
He is cute but I am biased.

cyntrow that sounds like an horrific experience honey - I am so sad that you had to go through that, having said that I remember my cousin having to carry her dead child before giving birth - it almost finished her for good!
maildumpster, you may be biased but your son is gorgeous and I am sure he will do great things! xxx

Maildumpster, you are not biased. He is beautiful. He has an excellent smile and beautifully expressive eyes. You are blessed.

Mummymo, The still birth was rough. The hardest part was finding out that the baby was dead and still having to carry it. If this procedure is pronouced illegal, women will have to carry the dead until they expel naturally, or they might have to have a c section with no live baby in the end. No one thinks about that, though.

Thank you both for your kind words for my son.
cythrow I am sorry you went through that. Truly saddened by it. I would not call that a partial birth abortion. Your baby died naturally. I would consider the procedure an evacuation of the uterus. I consider abortions to be the willful act of terminating a developing fetus/baby.

Spontaneous abortion is a miscarraige.

maildumpster, he is gorgeous! I see he likes chocolate, I think that's chocolate all over that cute face.
God Bless

Yes I know that they call miscarriage a spontaneous abortion.
I am just saying that in my mind and eyes abortions are willful acts not something that nature does. I hope that makes sense.

fpd1955 Thanks for the compliment for my son. Yeah he's a keeper LOL
He was eating a chocolate chip cookie and managed to get chocolate everywhere. Little bugger is going thru a toddler eating thing - what can I expect he turns 3 TODAY!

I do understand your "abortion" definition. My problem is that the procedure that took my decease child from my body is the same procedure that they are trying to ban. And there is no distinction. If they ban the procedure, it is banned. So I would have had to carry the baby for 3 more months, or endure a c section. Both options would have been traumatic.

Couldn't they have induced labor and had you deliver that way?
I think that the law needs to have allowances for medical reasons. That is what this was.

I agree, and I still believe that some women just do not want to carry babies to term. If abortion were illegal, women will die. That doesn't mean that I like abortion. But I believe in a woman's right to choose.

Exactly, many women did die over the years due to illegal abortions and the practitioners who fed off their need. Making it legal saved many women from dying or being permanently damaged.

While I don't like abortion I do not want it to be across the board illegal. Too many people will die or we will have a bunch of babies damaged by the attempts.
I am not against restrictions to getting abortions though. I know of women who have mulitple abortions. That is just wrong in my eyes. They should not be allowed to do that.

As far as a baby not getting a soul till birth; I have never heard of that. I am a former Catholic, I am a Born Again Christian AND I have several Jewish friends. (ok so I read it here on myLot in a discussion based on your comment but not before that) I have never seen any basis for that in the bible either. I'm not saying that you are wrong only that I had never been taught that or even heard it until today.

The soul is held in the Well of Souls, Hall of Souls or The Guf, depending on which wordage you want to use. It's a separate area in heaven where all souls are held until the baby is born. All the souls for all eternity are held there. Until the hall is empty the Messiah will not come or come again depending on if you are Jewish or Christian. You can read about some if here on line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guf

I do agree that those who use it as form of birth control isn't right but how do you restrict it? They could easily go to another area or another state and to make it a registry it would violate their right to privacy. That's where we run into trouble.

I'm gonna look into that. Thanks for the link. I'd heard of seperate areas in heaven for unbaptised babies but never for unborn souls.

I don't know how on earth you would stop serial abortions. It is a quandry.

Hhmmm apparently the belief is part of Kabbalah which is a form of Jewish mysticism not practice in general. That could explain why I never heard it.
Thanks for teaching me something new!

You are quite welcome. If you ever get a chance see the movie "The Seventh Sign", it has a lot of lore including about The Guf and some other legends that go with Christianity and the return of the Messiah. Very good movie.

I saw that movie but I don't remember it that well. I'm gonna have to watch it again. I enjoyed it the first time.

It's one of my favorites. It brings up The Guf and also Cartiphilus, I might have the spelling wrong on that part. He was Pilot's Gate keeper who was doomed to walk until Christ returned again. Actually had a priest tell me about that one before I ever saw the movie. It brings up a lot of legends, beliefs, or lore about the end of days.

Hi, emeraldisle!
Thanks for the link, and for saying about the Seventh Sign, I wonder if that's why the idea sounded so familiar when you mentioned it in that other discussion. See what you started? lol

Do you know that 20 years ago, a woman had to get her husband's permission to have her tubes tied? but that is really not the point. I respect your opinion. I do not agree. As I said in a response above, my miscarraige was not a baby.

But your resonse is very off topic. I want to know from people who are pro choice whether they believe they are pro choice or pro abortion. So I'll ask you, do you think that pro choice people are actually pro abortion, or do we jsut support the right to choose? I won't jump on you for your response. I am just intersted.

I re read your post. I don't know the laws in Canada. I hope you are mistaken. Here in the US, if I am 18 and want no children, I can have my tubes tied and my doctor must do it. Sure, he/she can try to convince me otherwise, but the choice is mine ultimately. In delivery, the doctor can advise me about c section or vaginal delivery, but unless my life is in danger and I am unconcious, the doctor cannot make that decision for me.

My body is mine.

I am interested in hearing from other Canadians if lynn's scenario is indeed fact or mistunderstanding.

I wish I could have my tubes tied.

unfortunately, people think that if you don't want children then you will, and that they know your mind better than you do.

it makes me really angry.

I don't know the laws in Canada, and this is off-topic; but I'll address those two questions if no one minds.
In the US, a woman under 30, without children, would have a hard time finding a doctor to tie her tubes. There are doctors who will do it. My mother had hers done at 24, as single mom of 1 child (in the 70s at that!) She had to look pretty hard to find a doctor who would agree & I believe she may have had her therapist help her convince the doctor it was best for her.
In so far as C-sections, in some ways it can be compared to unplanned pregnancies. There are steps women can take to minimize the chances they may need a c-section; just like there are ways a couple can reduce the chances that they'd become pregnant when they do not wish to be. Being in good health before becoming pregnant, stayin