Abortion, Religion, and Philosophy.

So great to hear from you again!

Please feel free to say what you want to say. Is it about the mother committing a sin? I am sure that no one can argue that in the eyes of God abortion is a sin committed on by the mother. It is only fair that you should be able to voice that opinion.

I am glad we agree that the unborn child who has had no chance to commit a sin would be gaurenteed a place in heaven. I have met some people who would say unborn children are destined for hell because they have not been baptised. I am glad to see you do not hold this view.

Dont worry, I promise I wont attack your beliefs. You know more about Christianity than I.

I am not worried about you attacking my beliefs Tee, I was just trying to be respectful to what you asked for.

I don't believe in abortion under any circumstance because to me (my feelings only) is is nothing more than murder. God didn't give Mother's children for them to murder. Death shouldn't be in the power of a man's hands, thats God's place to take life.

Speaking for myself, if I were to be able to bear any more children, and the doctors told me my child was not going to lead a productive life because of any type disability or deformity, then I would give birth to that child and I would do all within my power to care for that child and if it died at age 1-2-3-4-5 or whenever then I would just have to accept it as that.
If I got out here and got myself pregnant, just because I was too careless to protect myself from getting that way, then why is that the babies fault? So it should be murdered just because of my carelessness.
When you get out here and you are very promiscuous, you must know that there is a chance for you to get that way, why not prevent it if you must live like this.
I am not trying to sound rude, I am just explaining why I feel the way I do about abortion, not to mention the fact that like I said I believe it to be morally wrong, because of Biblical principals.

So thats my 2 cents worth for what it amounts to...LOL

Hugs Tee & have a blessed day

You dont sound rude at all to me. Then again, I never have to worry about getting pregant so I really am a neutral 3rd party here lol.

I truely appreciate your input here, I am sure there are many many people who share your views. Thank you very much for speaking up:)

This is exactly what I was wondering. It seems odd that an all forgiving God would condem an unborn child to hell because of the sin of the mother. That dosent seem right to me. If anyone goes to hell it should be for their own sins... expecially in the case of an unborn child who does not even have a basic concept of right and wrong.

Tee, God doesn't condemn unborn children to hell because of the sins of their momma....nor does he condemn any child to hell that is not held accountable for their own sin.
When a child perceives sin, and is at the age of accountability then they are held accountable for their sin, thus if no action has been taken from this child to ask for forgiveness of their sin, then that child is held accountable for himself. Now to say what that age is, I do not know....I guess when a child reaches the age that he/she knows right from wrong then they would be held accountable. It is most definately not arguable that a unborn child nor even a toddler or preschool child knows the full concept of sin, they are just still babies.
I don't know the answer to the question as to the age of accountability.

The God I serve anyway doesn't do this.

HUGS

Aren't "the sins of the father" only applicable to not holding the Jewish God above all others?

I just happen to have been reading the Ten Commandments yesterday...

Ah, just read it again;

Exodus 20;

4`Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth.

5Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me,

6and doing kindness to thousands, of those loving Me and keeping My commands.

"On those that hate me," is an interesting phrase...

but pretty much everyone on the planet is doomed for hell regardless.. biblically speaking as it were.

In the OT yes, deffinately... but after Christ? Because He died as a scapegoat of sorts, as long as we are really, truly, deeply sorry and believe in Jesus... we got a free ticket upwards.

It's all far too simplistic for my tastes.

Oh, and us Gentiles get it even easier;

Acts 15:19-21

19wherefore I judge: not to trouble those who from the nations do turn back to God,

20but to write to them to abstain from the pollutions of the idols, and the whoredom, and the strangled thing; and the blood;

21for Moses from former generations in every city hath those preaching him -- in the synagogues every sabbath being read.'

All we gotta do is not sacrifice to idols, not fornicate, not consume blood or the meat of strangled animals... ace!

I just don;t know when to shut up, do I?

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lol shard.. i just read yers now

Referring to the scripture you posted tessah.....Once again when you read a scripture it has a reason why it was written, you don't just read one scripture and not reference it say you know what it is saying, again there was a reason, as best I know this is why it was written like it was.

In Nehemiah 13:1-3 it states why....(you should reference your scripture instead of using them in such a derogatory way and allowing people to have a very distorted view of God. Everything God says in His Word is for a reason).

Back to the why....All the mixed multitude refers to the Moabites and Ammonites, two nations who were bitter enemies of Israel (13:1). God's Law clearly stated that these two peoples should never be allowed in the Temple (Deuteronomy 23:3-5). This had nothing to do with racial prejudice, because God clearly loved all people, including foreigners (Deuteronomy 10:18).. He allowed foreigners to make sacrifices (Numbers 15:15-16), and he desires all nations to know and love him (Isaiah 42:6). But while God wants all to come to him, he warns believers to stay away from those bent on evil (Proverbs 24:1). The relationship established between Jews and pagans had caused their captivity in the first place. In their celebration and rededication, they had to show they were serious about following God's law.

Balaam was hired by a pagan king to curse Israel. He did what God told him for awhile (Numbers 22-24), but eventually his evil motives and desire for money won out (Numbers 25:1-3; 31:16). Like the false teachers of Peter's day, Balaam used religion for personal advancement, a sin God does not take lightly.

Jude offers three examples of men who did whatever they wanted (1:10), Cain, who murdered his brother out of vengeful jealousy (Genesis 4:1-16), Balaam, who prophesied to get money, not out of obedience to God's command (Numbers 22-24), and Korah (Core), who rebelled against God's divinely appointed leaders, wanting the power for himself (Numbers 16:1-35). These stories illustrate attitudes that are typical of false teachers, pride, selfishness,jealousy,greed,lust for power, and just plain ole disregard of God's will.

So you see when you read a scripture how easily it can be taken out of context. You have to run those references to see just what the scripture is talking about.
Tessah, if this is the case and you firmly believe that God destroys ALL children because of the sins of their Mothers/Fathers...then does that include your children as well?

God is a merciful God and He does not destroy children, I don't care who says He does.
He said in Matthew that verily I say unto you, except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Little children are weak and dependent people with no status or influence. Little children are trusting by nature. They trust adults, and through that trust their capacity to trust God grows.
Parents and other adults who influence young children are held accountable by God for how they affect these little ones ability to trust. Jesus warned over & over again that anyone who turns little children away from faith will receive severe punishment.


Heaven will be full if God has to fill it with little children...most certainly little children will enter into the gates of heaven if not another single person does.

Have a nice day Tess.

what i personally beleive is irrelevant.. the question was if whether or not an unborn child, or a newly born child, would have a free ticket into heaven, or if they would suffer the misdeeds of their parents. from a biblical standpoint, regardless of the "reasoning" it very simply states that the unborn DO suffer for the sins of the parents. period.

Colour me confused. Wasn't David a Moabite descendant? Thus descendant from an incestuous rape?

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Ah yes, good point. It was not necessarily within his own bloodline.

as the story loosely goes.. ruth was the grandmother to david.. and was a moabite. according to scripture NO moabite would be welcome into heaven, nor any of their descendants even past the tenth generation.. so basically none ever were to be permitted. also.. david is the 9th generation descendant of perez who was the bast@rd son of judah and tamar. soo technically.. david had two strikes against him that ive found as to being cast to hell due to his lineage along the way. still havent found any direct refferences to david and any incest tho..

You two are fascinating. If I was so inclined to learn more about biblical history, I certainly know who I will be turning to.

I dont want to take away from this riviting debate you have going, but I do have one question. What is a Moabite?

Please continue the discussion. I had no idea my heathen aquaintances were so well versed in biblical theory.

As a side note... I guess I will be damned to hell for yet another reason. My favther was an adulterer.

aiighty.. yes. the term "moabite" is in refference to any and all descendants of Moab.. who was the grandson of Lot and Lot`s daughter who was conceived after the destruction of Sodam & Gomorrah when they were trapped in a cave. beleiving they were the last survivors on earth.. Lots daughters conspired to get him drunk, and trick him into impregnanting them both as it was the only way theyd have children. the plan worked, thus spawned Moab and the term Moabite.. which ruth was.. and her being davids grandmother.. thusly it does make david a product of incestruous relations within his own personal lineage, as well as the "reasoning" as to none of the Moabites ever being allowed admittance into heaven.

Tee.. according to the book of deuteronomy.. even the children born within wedlock, if it is the SECOND marriage.. they are considered illigitmate, and also are not permitted. so any child who is from a second marriage, or a descendant of someone from a second marital union.. are biblically damned. which.. according to scripture, we are all descendants of Adam and Eve.. and eve was adams SECOND wife.. we are ALL damned!!

Oh yeah. I forgot about Lilith. Wow, kind of makes you want to just lie down and wait for death... after asking for forgiveness, just in case.

Tee: You calling me a heathen?! lol, I guess most people would consider me such.

This is kinda long, but it might be found interesting. It has 2 parts and the second part can be accessed from the first page of this link.
http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0142.htm

Irish, this is wonderful, and I love John nMcArthur, a very Biblically sound man with Biblically sound doctrine.

I have book marked this site so I can go back and re read, I will also share it with others who seem to have a problem with babies leaving here and not sure of their destination.

Thanks & HUGS my friend

Hmmm, I got half way through the first page and got annoyed.

The highest rates of infant mortality are found in the poorest and most primitive nations, and at the same time, the most pagan nations: mostly in Africa and Asia.

He lost any credibility he may have had with that statement.

rather reminiscent of this woman i once met.. she was a counselor at some family center. after pleasantries she got down to business about the only way being jesus blahblahblah ..;rolls eyes;.. and then made the off handed comment about her "proof" of god being aids.. that it was a blessing sent from god to kill all the f@ggots and drug users and other random "sinners" i flipped out on her.. it took everything i had in me to not go up over the table and strangle her. i never went back to that center. .;sigh;..

Tess, just another instance where people serve God with their lips BUT their heart is far from Him.

You must realize that NOT everybody who "professes" God is of God. Anyone can "profess" God, but you have to "possess" Him, just not profess Him. There is a big difference, I would even say a HUGE difference.

There are people out there who will say anything and some of the things they say detour good people from wanting to know anything of God, all because they do NOT know God for who He is, they see Him as this person who does mean things.

God is a God of love, He is NOT the mean, vile person some make Him out to be.He is a just God we must remember and when one does things contrary to His commands and will for our lives, yes He will discipline us, cause just as a Father/Mother disciplines their children when they do wrong, we also must be disciplined when we do things that are against God.
We have a earthly Father, and a Heavenly Father. We have to be obedient to both, as instructed by God.

God doesn't HATE anyone, He hates the sin in their lives, BUT He does not hate any human being.
For this woman or whoever it was to spew these things from her mouth, was speaking about a person she does NOT know, because anyone who "knows" God knows He is NOT the person she described.

cook..

you assume that i do not know christ. that i dont know god. this assumption is very far from the actual truth. am i a christian? no.. i dont beleive that christ is the only god.. i dont beleive he is jealous and vengeful. do i beleive there is consequences to actions? yes.. but i also know the diffeence beween a spanking, and abuse. the things others have proclaimed are just and viable "punishments" for sposed disobedience.. torture, misery, death.. all at the hands of a "loving" god, are abusive.. this is not the god i know.. it does not make sense to me.. they do not mirror anything of what christ taught.. so no, i do not follow that god.. whether by fear.. or threat. in the same manner that an earthly parent is wrong to beat their children and instill fear and torture to submission and obedience.. neither should a heavenly god. the same way it would be right and just for a child to turn their back on this kind of parent.. so it is right and just for me to turn my back on this god. i do not beleive that the god spoken of in the bible.. the one who reigns heavy handed with endless fear of punishments.. is the Christ. i do not beleive the god this woman at that family center worships thinking its GOOD for people, even babies. to die and suffer because they dont follow the lead of him.. is the Christ. theres logic to my reasoning and you know it. love is not pain.. love is not threats.. love is given freely, and there are no punishments if it is not returned. my gods.. those i cherish.. DOES include Christ in the mix.. but he isnt the vengeful violent creature thats portrayed in that book.. or the one people run around screaming about repentence to because he will torture me if i dont. throughout the bibe itself, it is mentioned of an anti-christ.. that people will be fooled into following.. thinking he is the actual christ.. if you look at the teachings of Christ, of love accepance and respect for ALL without condition.. it does not reflect these other actions written done or demanded by this "other" who speaks of being jealous and vengeful. ive gotten longwinded here.. but i hope ive made the point i was trying to make in it.

Yes tess, you have made your point. I understood it well. I have no argument with you for the way you believe. Everyone has the right to believe as they will.
I don't expect everyone to believe as I do, and I know you are intelligent enough to know that not everyone is gonna believe as you do. Thats life, everyone has the free will to choose whom they will serve.

Tess have a great day

thank you cook. maybe, juust maybe, we`ve reached some common ground and youll understand me a little bit better, and there wont be anymore insinuations that your way is the only way, and anyone else that beleives or behaves differently are sinners that are going to be punished.

That is the reason I left the discussion so open. I am curious as to when a human soul is capable of sin. If life begins at conception, then it would stand to reason that... a fetus could sin....?

Very curious. I really look forward to peoples thoughts on this.

A thought...

In some branches of Buddhism abortion** has no effect on the soul in the foetus, it is simply put back into the cycle. However in some branches it is bad for the soul being aborted because it has not been given the chance to lose any bad karma/gain any good karma/lose any karma/gain any new insight/knowledge (Buddhism is complicated).

Perhaps it is a similar thing for an unborn foetus with a soul. How can it experience the delights of Heaven if it has never experienced the pain of Earth? If it has not grown enough to understand either of these things?

**okay, that was creepy, I wrote "abortion" and someone on the radio said it!

It would seem that way wouldnt it? That is why I am so eager to hear from other mylotters on this issue.

If a child has is promised a trip to heaven, I would think more Christians would be in favor.

I'm trying my best to keep my personal feeling out of all this. I really am interested to see what people have to say.

Thanks for speaking up!

It really is amazing the things you come up with while laying in bed at night and allow your mind to follow its own course. Furthermore thank goodness for Mylot so I have a place to bounce these crazy ideas around with other people!

Friends it is, but I must warn you, I am not -always- this well behaved. I am a work in progress:)

I thank God for myLot every day! LOL!

And, I am not always well-behaved either so, I have no qualms with works in progress! LOL! That is practically my middle name!

Sometimes personal feelings are all we have to go by. Like most things I find in Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) the issue of souls, abortion, heaven and hell is wide open for debate. There are many ways to discern ones personal path. Like you said, Holy Books should be guides, nothing more.

The rest is up to us.

I am very sorry to learn about your stillbirth. As a male there is no way I could ever imagine what that was like.

That's wht I've been trying to tell people for years. Any religion is subjective. We have to throw in some common sense. SOme feeling.

I believe what I believe because I feel it, not because I think it and certianly not because someone told me it was the right thing to believe.

My stillbirth happened about 15 years ago. It no longer hurts. Although sometimes, I wonder what would have been. But I know in my heart that there was nothing living in that child that expelled. No heart, not brain, and certainly no soul..