Why Wiccan

Not new - decidedly old!

We will have to watch this one together cause I'm hoping it draws some action. In the meantime you can hit my website for a little dose of truth if you have nothing better to do. I'd like to get some feedback.

thefundamentalist.info

hey thank you. I was just informed, have a great day. and love your site.:D

No offense intended, sorry if you took it that way. But they are not all the same. Since they are all different and they all claim to be true, someone has to be wrong, right? I also think you err to claim that morality is personal, it is not. Right and wrong are the providence of the creator. There can not be more than one deity. everyone may be lookiong for answers, but they are usless unless you can base them in absolute truth. Moral relativity just won't cut it.

When it comes to faith they are all the same. It is arrogant to claim your faith is better than anyone elses.
I can sit here and tell you my PC is God and it has all the answers. If nelieved it to be true nothing you can say or do can convinceme other wise, right?
Same goes for your beliefs.

All religions have a belief system. they all tell fellow man to treat each other accordingly and int he end everyone is rewarded. it's this reward that everyone argues over yet not one person can claim as fact.

Faith is belief in something one personally holds true.
Morality is personal as it involes ones most intimate thoughts and feelings about a subject, personaly. Everyones morals are different in regards to thier faith.

Your very question defines this as you are of different faith looking for a reply from another. Ergo different morals dependent on the individual. It all comes down to personal preferance. even those in a majority made a concious decision to join that viewpoint. It was a personal choice.

I do not understand your reasoning behind morals not being personal.

The thing about morality is that is is insignificant if we compare yours, against mine, against another's. There is a morality that comes from absolute truth, (sorry - God), and it is the benchmark. When we talk about morality what we are really doing is comparing whose morality is the closest to the absolute. The thing is that everybody thinks that the absolute exists and that the other people understand and know about it. The only reason that I have ever encountered,(including within myself prior to my conversion), to explain the rejection of the Christian viewpoint is that personal pride rears it's ugly head. No one wants to think that they are not basically good, but Christ said that there are none good but God. We all will believe in God one day, like it or not, as it's written, even the demons in Hell believe and tremble.

Absolute, good choice of word. Even science is looking for that one. I agree with you on every point except everyone will believe (free will) and one absolute truth, sounds like a form of politics and that's not spiritual.

The New & Old Testaments alike where written thousands of years after many other religions were already established.
The idea of one absolute is arrogant, I say again.

It just seems pointless to ask someone your topic question. I have yet to see you explain why you believe yours so....

Like you mentioned there are so many religions someone has to be wrong. Problem is noone wants to be that one.

The first descendents of Adam had a faith but it didn't make it right just because it is older than the rest. In fact, it was so wrong that God eliminated the entire species of man except for 8 people with which He repopulated the earth.

I hadn't planned to go this deep here but you've asked for it, hope your sitting down.

If the Bible is true, then Christ is the ONLY way and that's the end of the discussion. So the question is, is the Bible reliable? Christ says that every word is inspired of God, so now it comes down to the matter of whether or not Christ is who He claimed to be. If he is, then we're left with no option but to believe Him.

The fact is that Jesus of Nazareth was in fact a historical figure that is substantiated by sources outside of the Bible. Josephus, Tertullian, and other historians of that day attest to the fact that Jesus was a real figure. The reason that the Jews moved to crucify Him was for blasphemy in that He claimed to be God.

Now then, was he who he claimed to be? An independant research team at a secular college calculated the odds of anyone other than God being able to fulfill 8 of the old testament prophesies concerning the coming of the messiah to be
100,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 - thats 100,million,billion to one. The thing is, that Christ actually fulfilled over 300 prophesies, not merely 8.

So now we have Jesus being a real person and the odds of him being God, astronomical! If he was/is God then He can not lie. Since Jesus tells us that that we can trust the Bible, then I feel confident that the Bible is true, (no matter how fantastic it may sometimes seem). The Bible tells us that Jesus is THE way, THE truth and THE life and that the ONLY way to the Father is through Him. So then,if Jesus isn't the core of your faith, then,I'm sorry but God says that your wrong. You have no bone to pick with me, take it up with God.

Satan and all his demons believe the truth of Christ as, of course, do all those in the host of Heaven so that is why I say that ALL will believe one day, like it or not.

Nobody can make anyone believe something that they are not led to consider and it would seem as though the Holy Spirit may be working on you even now. If not, you may not have been so involved with the whole idea of holiness, deity and the salvation offered through faith in Christ. Now that you have this information in front of you, I hope that you will consider that there may be more to the Christian point of view than perhaps you had previously thought.

I have written several articles that you may find enlightening at my site

thefundamentalist.info

It's nice to see someone stand up for thier beliefs. I commend you for that. How ever no amount of data offered by any "Secular" whatever is going to convice me that Christ was real. Furthermore, I was raised Catholic. I do practice it is persay someone who goes to church on Sundays, But I do know the Bible.
I was sitting and in all actuality you have told me nothing I have not heard before. I have studied more religions than most people know exist. Faith is faith, it's personal. You demonstrated it by attempting to sway me with fact when we all know numbers can be made to be whatever anyone wants them to be.

I did not post here to dispute you in any way. I did however ask you to prove how you felt and you have done that. Seeing as how no Wiccans have replied to your post just proves more theories on thier religion.

They are neutral and would rather not involve themselves in such trivial despute as to "My God is better than yours" much like elementary children telling each other whoes Dad can beat up who.

I have read your website (not all) and although I agree with your point of view I do agree with your faith. Not many will. I can sit here and name several churches who are within miles of each other, claiming to be in the same secular circle, yet they all bring to light different morals and beliefs.

Not everyone thinks alike and no one ever will. Once people can get past being actual individuals maybe we can see a universal harmony amongst our fellow man.

My belief, Genesis as described in the bible is Impossible within the time given. Ofcourse God would be against any old religion much like any Lion would eat the cubs of another pride. It's all territory. I could go on for days like this.....

I can better undserstand your position now, knowing the background of you theology. I am not one of those Christians who believe that the Catholics are all going to Hell but I'm fairly sure that there will be a large section in the bleachers reserved for priest's, cardinals, bishops and popes. I vehemently disagree with many of the teachings of popery but the true test comes in the weighing of the believer's heart. I am sure that there are many in the clutch of Catholocism who have managed to forge a relationship with Christ even through the heaps of idol worphip and salvation of works and indulgences that is spewed from Rome.

It doesn't matter if you believe me or not. I have laid out a case that you must examine and as far as the numbers go, statistics classes proved to me that you can make any set of results say anything that you want them to say but even if the data were skewed a few hundred million or so one way or the other, by the time the data were extrapolated to encompass 300 messianic prophesies it wouldn't affect the impossibility of Christ being anyone other than God incarnate.

I noticed a typo in my lst response. I do not go to church. That's all, lol. Sorry to see no one else has replied I feel my answers are not the ones you were looking for.

Little tidbit of my history, I had to read all before I responded. First I was raised Catholic/ Southern Baptist, now if you think that was easy. Please think again, My dad was a german catholic and my mom a texas southern baptist.

By the time I was 14, I was tired of church, I wanted more of something,but not sure what. I kinda thought maybe my mom did too, for she started to explore churches, We went to the upper room in L.A.CA. and we saw the holliest of hollers and there I felt something, It was not until I was around 15 when I realized it my self. I was cooking in the Luthern Church on Wednesday nights, I was attending the Methodist Church on Sundays and then when I could I hit the Pentacostal Churches, I remember once, I went to church with a girlfriend and her family. This is where God allowed me as He always had, to choice and He opened my heart and eyes for the first time, I had to stay with the Pentecostal, There was something there, What I was missing was found, and in truth, I found Life. All the churches I went to before was dead. sad but true. My mom use to say, the only reason I went to church was because of the music, Well, 10 years later in another town, my mom went to a church like the one I found. and she came back and said she understood, it was not only the music, she knew the church was alive with the Spirit. The churches I have gone to is catholic, seventh day advents, luthern,methodist, joseph smith, joseph campbell, and a few more. Oh I also have done the new love follow Christ. I have found that the main reason I love the church is because what ever Church I am in, God is there. It is a live. It must be the charismatic of the spirit that keeps the church alive. For all others are dead. Yes, there are charismatic catholic, methodist and seven day adventist so far that is all I have found

I do have to say one thing, I meet a lady who's next door neighbor was Catholic, .. the lady received the Holy Spirit, and found something, I guess like I did, and she went home and told her mom about this Jesus she has meet, She said something that has stuck with me for over 20 years, she goes momma, I found Jesus and I want you to find him with me. And her momma says, My daughter*name will not be used*, don't tell me that the Jesus I serve and pray to is not the Jesus you speak of.
I learned something that day. I learned it was not the church, it was the heart of the person. Later I was told and read the story in Luke 11:17. Jesus was speaking and said "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall,
So it got me to thinking, As long as people believe that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God, then we are standing as Brother's and Sister's in Christ,
For we all stand together as believers. It does not matter that we all go to different churches or believe differently as long as the truth is in us, Everything else is a non essential. and its ok.

I wanted to say one more thing, The next week after the experience I had in the Pentecostal Church, I went back to my church and I walked out of there crying, It was not until a few days later, as I was praying did I fully understand why I cried, I cried, because the church was died, I loved the people, they were great, but they were missing the most important thing and that was the Reason they were there, they were died, It was like they went because it was a habit, or because they felt they had to, something, but what ever it was, The Spirit was not there. That is when I knew God was real, I knew the Spirit was alive and I needed more than what I had,

I now understand Wiccan: It is white magic, witchery, It took me a moment, but I recognize it very well. WE all know what it really is. How ever I am not bring that subject up. I do not want to open a can of worms but this is what it is.

I am amazed that mylot didn't time out the session before you finished that, kudos!

Sorry to hear that you were Catholic. That would deive me toward anything esle too. But, that said, do not confuse Catholocism with Christianity, they are not the same. If you like the feel of the creation story that you took so long to relate, that's fine but the fundamental question is WHY do you believe it? Because it feels right? In the Bible it speaks of times when men did whatever seemed good to them, being their own judges, but that was a dark time. There is no reasoning in the feelings of man.

My question to you would be, have you ever read the Bible, cover to cover, for yourself? If not, why not? I know that the deans of popery think that the average person can not understand the Scriptures, but they thought that meat on Friday was a sin too, so what do they know?

The Bible has outstanding, even scientific, reasoning to recommend it as the inerrant Word of God, so before you chase after a whim, read it. Then you will at least have something to compare all the rest of the metaphysic garbage to.

The God of the Bible was around, long before even your way existed.

I'm glad that your prideful ego is content never having to apologize for any misstep along the way. If you know right from wrong, tell me how? Without an absolute standard of morality, the kind that can only come from God, how can you distinguish? As far as as not being condemned or d**ned for even rebelling in your own path, wow, sounds like you have it made... IF it's true. Which is where the rub comes in. Other than thinking that it ought to be the way you contend that it should be, you have no logical reason to believe any of what you claim to believe. If you are right, fine; but what if your wrong? Are you sure that you are willing to lead your children down the path to Hell, are you willing to take that chance?

Have you ever even read the Bible or did you dismiss it out of hand?

I do apologize if I am wrong and no my ego does not get in my way but when I have people challenge me about my believes I'm not going to hide in the shadows. I am what I have always been. I am very sure of my path and of my options. I do not fear any retribution when my time here is done because I do not live my life to earn that retribution.

Just because I don't need a book to give me directions or a person of the cloth to pat me on the head and tell me it is alright when I have sinned that I have been forgiven doesn't make me any better or any worse than anyone else. I control my life and my world, not 100% but the parts that count, I control them.

I don't hand control over to someone or something else to do that for me. I'm not controlled by stings or fears. I am nobody's puppet. For the record I was brought up in a Baptist Church and found it to be one of the most hypocritical places I was ever in. I never made the connection because I knew it wasn't who I was, not that I didn't try a time or two.

I was baptized when I was 14, not because I believed but because I was told by my best friend I couldn't be involved with the church I had grown up in for the last 10 years cause I didn't belong. My mother started me in that church when I was four and I stayed there for 10 years. I never fit in and I never belonged. It wasn't enough that I was there every Wednesday and twice on Sunday, it wasn't enough that my parents gave me money to put in the plate.

It was always more and more and it was never enough, eventually I knew I would never be able to give it enough and walked away and embraced what was in my heart all along.

I have never doubted my path from that day and I never will. Even when I tried to belong I knew who I was, maybe that is why it never worked for me, but I will never know cause I'm not walking backwards on this one. I have seen too much self-center hypocrisy from the people I once looked up to, always having something to prove.

And yes the God of the Bible was probably around before witchcraft had a name, that may very well be true but witchcraft itself was around before witchcraft had a name and long before Christianity made its way around.

Christianity is what it is today because of the stories told in the Old Testament, the ones told and the ones left out. The murders, the killings, the brutality against anyone and everyone that stood in its way. You either converted or died. Today, nothing has changed, just the wording and the way the final punishment is carried out. The fear is the same, the methods have changed, outright murder isn't look on quite the same way it used to be. Now we have preachers and televangelists.

I appreciate the almost civil response. The pat on the head thing was still a bit patronizing but no big whoop. The biggest problem with Christianity is that the examples that are held up for the world to see, are usually mere pretenders and it trashes the cause for Christ. It's too bad that you gave up but consider that if you can not find a single decent Christian, maybe you should be the first. If you have a right understanding of the Bible, everything makes sense, if you don't, it can't. It is written though, to train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old, they will not turn from it. Don't judge Christianity by those who profess to be believers, many are not, but rather by Jesus Christ. He will never let you down.

Actually I have been married to a very good Christian man for nearly 20 years. My 15 year old son may very well follow in that path also. Neither of us have brought religion to our children in any way other than factual information, when the time comes that they are old enough to choose that path it will be their choice, not ours. They all believe in a Higher Power, they all call to God, what form God is for them is theirs and theirs alone. It is not for us, as their parents to make that choice. We all have our own lives and our own paths to follow and what is right for one often is not right for another. If that were the case we would all be drones.

I don't live a violent life full of sin and misdeeds. I don't make it my life's work to make other people miserable. I treat people fairly and with total respect unless they earn otherwise. I do not force myself on others or show judgment on them just because.

Many people, not all, who find out I'm a witch automatically think broomstick, Satan and cauldron, some take it seriously, some as a joke. All the bull brought about in story books and so far from the truth it is ridiculous. They automatically assume I'm evil based on one word. They forget anything they may have seen before that moment and will often never see anything in the future cause their entire way of thinking has shifted.

It gets old after a while and quite annoying, but in the end most of the conversations end with them offering to pray for my soul and threats of going to hell because they have not converted me. Saddest part is, they want me to stop everything and listen to them nonstop, but they never want to listen to me. Not that I would try to persuade them to believe as I believe but just listening to what makes me who I am. It always comes back to them trying to convert me, they hear nothing but noise from me and every break they get they attack.

All I want is to be able to live my life as it is. I'm happy with my choice and I'm safe with my choice. I have never doubted that. Not following the rule of the Christian religion do not make it any more or any less valid in my eyes, it just isn't right for me.

Oh and by the way I'm still trying to figure out your chain comments in that other post (?????). Last time I check I wasn't shackled. I figured it I brought it back up you might explain it.

Wow and I just noticed how many typos I had again. I think faster than I type and sometimes my fingers stumble over the letters. forgive me.

Just a few things. First, I know that I cannot change what you choose to believe, that's up to the Spirit. The reason I can keep faith in Christianity is because God assures me it is His truth, (re-read my 4th response above). Nothing that I say here, or in any of my posts should ever be considered as me telling anyone that I think they are doomed to Hell or whatever, they're not. What they are is what God tells us is the truth. I am only stating the conclusions reached through Biblical doctrine, so (TO ALL WHO READ ANY OF MY POSTS), if you have a problem with an opinion of me that says I'm hard hearted or judgmental, take it up with God!

The proof of the Bible is this, Jesus lived on earth, a historical fact; He showed Himself to be God, (see 4th above); He assures us that the Bible is the truth of God; whatever the Bible says must be true. It's that simple. We don't always like what it says, but it is still the truth.

The creation story you told was lovely, I can appreciate a nice bit of fiction as well as the next person, but it is fiction and I discern this because it violates the creation ACCOUNT given to us by God.

I know, (I'm afraid better than many of those who refuse to recognize the truth of the Bible), that this path of yours is not free of consequence. The consequences will not become apparent until you stand before the bar of God's high court and He asks why you denied Jesus Christ. But consequences? Absolutely!

Your creed to do no harm is fine, and I think that it would work well IF this life were all that you had to consider. Even though you may strive to do no harm in this life, it could have catastrophic results in the eternal life to come.

Again, referring to the 4th above, I have laid out a logical reason to hold the belief that I do. What is missing is the same type of position from any other camp of theology. I understand that you may not agree with the theology I have accepted and while I consider that to be the most greivious of errors, it is entirely your choice, I would even defend your right to have that choice. What no one has able to provide, is a reasonable reason to believe the way you claim to believe, or even an answer to the question, "What would it take for you to at least consider Biblical doctrine.

I have yet to see any historical proof that Jesus walked on Earth outside of the Bibile. I have also yet to see any historical proof that he was the Sone of God outside of the Bible. You have NO irrefutable proof outside of the bible. And there is absolutely nothing that will convince me to consider returning or even considering returning to christianity. You forget I was raised Christian. I have heard it all before. I am not about to change any more than you are. Let's just agree to leave it at that. When I first answered this discussion, it was under the impression that someone was simply curious about my beliefs, not that I would be defending myself against someone who has no desire to even consider my point of view but expect me to agree when you tell me repeatedly that your way is the only way that makes sense. Well, if it made any sense to me at all I wouldn't believe the way I do. I am through with this particuar discussion.

My 4th above pretty much guarantees that it is God that says that you can believe every word of the Bible. Outside sources of Christ, Read Josephus.

You need to make up your mind, you said that you were raised Catholic, I even sympathised with that atrocity, and now you say you were raised Christian! They are not the same, so which was it?

Oh, Yeah, I only insist that my way is the only way, (and mind you, I am not saying that you have to go my way,[I mean unless you really do want salvation, but that's your choice]), What I want is ANY reasonable logic that says that there is any reason to believe the things you claim. I say God's Word, (Backed by astronimical mathematical and sceintific probabilities), is just cause to believe the things that I do. You have given nothing except you personal opinion to the discussion. Where is the Damning evidence from Satan's Handbook? Why would you give a thought to believing such a thing, (yes, I know that it doesn't really exist), when it would be coming from the father of lies? If all you have is, "Because it makes sense to me." then you have no evidence at all. You may not agree with me, and that's fine; don't come to the table empty handed and expect to play in the big game though. I call on you to defend your position because, 1 - it is always the Christian who has to defend in this type of a discussion, and because, 2 - I don't think that any thinking person can believe the mystic hokey pokey that you, and your kind, claim as truth.

I have a few more things to add and than I am going to withdrawal as well. We are not going to find any common ground; this discussion is doing nothing more than making me even more disgusted with a religion that cannot accept others beliefs and leave them be. I was born and raised Catholic. Like it or not, Catholicism IS a form of Christianity. So both of my statements are true. I simply switched to saying Christianity after you seemed not to like hearing the word Catholic.

I never asked you to defend your religion. I simply brought it up as a way of saying that NEITHER of us have proof that will convince the other. The proof you offer can be twisted to say whatever you want it to. As I have said from the beginning, I don't have any proof either. All I have are my personal experiences, which ARE personal and, therefore, not to be discussed in a public forum. But guess what? I don't need any proof, because I am not trying to convincee you. I simply offer information, and, if anyone chooses to take it further, it is THEIR choice. I am not going to waste my time trying to CONVINCE someone to change their beliefs. Frankly, it is comments such as "mystic hokey pokey" that make me tired of this discussion. While I may not agree with your beliefs, I have never mocked them, and I do not appreciate you mocking mine. Good Luck and Blessed Be.

What's the point?

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are saved, it is the power of God.

Fare thee well.